At the Deepest Level, Love and Grief are the Same from the media Love Is the Reality of Everything
A woman describes an investigation of love and recognises that, at the bottom of deep love, she finds suffering, and at the bottom of suffering she finds love. Rupert agrees, for instance in the case of tremendous grief, you cannot really separate the grief from the love. The woman says she's speaking more of the quality of love. Rupert suggests the qualities are the same for both if you go deeply into either experience.
- Duration: 6 minutes and 39 seconds
- Recorded on: Nov 15, 2023
- Event: Seven-Day Retreat at The Vedanta – 11 to 18 November
A woman, for whom this is a first retreat, says she has back pain during the meditations. Rupert responds that she might be more comfortable lying on the floor on a mat. It could be some underlying tension that is surfacing, as normal focus is relaxed. Surrender the pain to the space of awareness.
A woman says she has reasoned herself into a corner; she speaks of her father, whom she may lose soon, but feels as if she is able to hold a space of peace and love for him. She discovered that love was not a feeling, but doesn't know how to explain it otherwise, except that it feels like nothing, neither good nor bad. Rupert responds that in order to know anything, one must stand apart in subject–object perspective. Love cannot stand apart from itself to know itself. In the sense that awareness knows itself, love is nothing. However, it is the reality of everything. It knows itself as nothing, but is everything. From the point of view of the separate self, it is nothing in contrast to the sorrow and conflict normally experienced.
If our natural state is beingness, why does awareness want to localise itself and suffer? Rupert responds that it doesn't want to, it is its nature to do so. It localises itself in the finite mind in order to realise its infinite potential. It doesn't choose to do that, or the choice would indicate something manifest already or outside of consciousness.
A question is asked about emotions, and whether to fully abide in that emotion, or continue to be the white paper, or space, of awareness. If the emotion is being ignored, is it suppressed? Rupert suggests to be aware of the white paper rather than the emotion that arises within it. It's not being suppressed, you're just not paying attention to it. He discusses the difference between the Tantric and Vendantic paths. Paraphrasing Meister Eckhart, Rupert suggests you become nothing before you become everything.
When we work internally, letting go of judgments, beliefs and so on, the people around us change. She asks Rupert if he agrees. Rupert says yes, change on the inside results in change on the outside.
A woman asks about feelings, and find that if she allows feelings to be expressed regarding others, they tend to dissipate. Rupert suggests that it is possible with some feelings, such as sorrow or loneliness, but maybe not necessarily with violent feelings.
A man wants further discussion and clarification on the Mary and Jane metaphor, and if it is possible that our experience here is the dream of a larger finite mind. Rupert suggests it is possible, but probably not likely, because, when you investigate, can you find anything finite? Is Mary's mind finite? Jane would have to explore the essence of her own mind to determine if anything finite can be found.
A man postulates himself as Mary (in this case Tim), and he wonders, if he fell asleep and dreamt he was Tom, would he know his infinite beingness as Tim? Rupert clarifies that the infinite space of the universe is Mary, the space in the room is Jane. The room seems to be a limited space, but in this room there is the space that is identical to the space in the universe.
A man asks about the Mary and Jane metaphor. Is there a way for us to know if we are Jane or Claire (an appearance within Jane's mind, whom Rupert invented during the previous questioner exchange)? Rupert replies, that all his models are not ultimately accurate. We have to apply Occam's Razor to our models, to build a model based on our actual experience. We can go there intellectually, but we are more interested in experiential understanding. We want a model that takes us to reality, to evoke, in Cezanne words, 'the taste of nature's eternity.'
A man asks about how to face emotions, especially intense emotions, because they take up the whole space. Rupert asks about the space that is filled up; what is its nature before the emotion arises? It's empty. Is there anything, any emotion, that is not saturated with, pervaded by the space? That's pure Vedanta, which is to explore the space. The Tantic practice is to investigate the emotion. They end up in empty space, no matter which way you go.
A woman describes an investigation of love and recognises that, at the bottom of deep love, she finds suffering, and at the bottom of suffering she finds love. Rupert agrees, for instance in the case of tremendous grief, you cannot really separate the grief from the love. The woman says she's speaking more of the quality of love. Rupert suggests the qualities are the same for both if you go deeply into either experience.
A question is asked about mental stability, such as a hint of terror that arises during this investigation. The concern is about being able to carry on in daily life. Rupert suggests that our being loses the limitations from experience, such as agitation. As we sink into being, we stand revealed as unlimited, so as the separate self sinks, it loses its identity, which is like a death, and therefore sometimes terror arises. But it doesn't mean you're going to lose your mind; you still have the capacity to think and act. The only thing lost is the belief in separation. He suggests jumping into the abyss, which is actually more like surrender, a kind of 'just take me'.
A woman asks about ajatavada and this new way of speaking of world or no world. Rupert responds that ajatavada is the infinite's experience of itself. It knows nothing, but from our point of view, it's everything. He is trying to reconcile that which is nothing is also everything.
A woman who is 'a recovering Evangelical Christian' says she still yearns for a bridge between non-duality and Christianity. Rupert gives some examples, such as when Moses asks, 'Who should I say sent me?', and God says, 'Tell them "I am that I am"' Or when Jesus says, 'Before Abraham, I am', which was a reference to before time – he wasn't referring to himself as a person, but beyond time as pure and infinite being.
Where did Christianity go wrong? How did that jewel of truth get buried? Rupert suggests that the Bible wasn't understood, even by the disciples. If we believe ourself to be a person, we will think that Jesus is a person and is the Saviour, which makes all the other great traditions wrong. If we know who we are, we know who Jesus was, as the Christ principle.
A man says he went full circle since his last retreat; he is not in the same hell anymore. He said he found out there is nothing worng with him. Rupert thanks him for sharing and says that this is how the teaching works. The community of friends on the retreat has a healing presence. The real meaning of satsang is bathing in presence. The next Buddha is the community.
Kyra speaks to the audience about Rupert's foundation which was set up in 2017, originally for scholarships. The mission of the foundation is making peace accessible, available across the world, to as many people as possible.
A woman, for whom this is a first retreat, says she has back pain during the meditations. Rupert responds that she might be more comfortable lying on the floor on a mat. It could be some underlying tension that is surfacing, as normal focus is relaxed. Surrender the pain to the space of awareness.
A woman says she has reasoned herself into a corner; she speaks of her father, whom she may lose soon, but feels as if she is able to hold a space of peace and love for him. She discovered that love was not a feeling, but doesn't know how to explain it otherwise, except that it feels like nothing, neither good nor bad. Rupert responds that in order to know anything, one must stand apart in subject–object perspective. Love cannot stand apart from itself to know itself. In the sense that awareness knows itself, love is nothing. However, it is the reality of everything. It knows itself as nothing, but is everything. From the point of view of the separate self, it is nothing in contrast to the sorrow and conflict normally experienced.
If our natural state is beingness, why does awareness want to localise itself and suffer? Rupert responds that it doesn't want to, it is its nature to do so. It localises itself in the finite mind in order to realise its infinite potential. It doesn't choose to do that, or the choice would indicate something manifest already or outside of consciousness.
A question is asked about emotions, and whether to fully abide in that emotion, or continue to be the white paper, or space, of awareness. If the emotion is being ignored, is it suppressed? Rupert suggests to be aware of the white paper rather than the emotion that arises within it. It's not being suppressed, you're just not paying attention to it. He discusses the difference between the Tantric and Vendantic paths. Paraphrasing Meister Eckhart, Rupert suggests you become nothing before you become everything.
When we work internally, letting go of judgments, beliefs and so on, the people around us change. She asks Rupert if he agrees. Rupert says yes, change on the inside results in change on the outside.
A woman asks about feelings, and find that if she allows feelings to be expressed regarding others, they tend to dissipate. Rupert suggests that it is possible with some feelings, such as sorrow or loneliness, but maybe not necessarily with violent feelings.
A man wants further discussion and clarification on the Mary and Jane metaphor, and if it is possible that our experience here is the dream of a larger finite mind. Rupert suggests it is possible, but probably not likely, because, when you investigate, can you find anything finite? Is Mary's mind finite? Jane would have to explore the essence of her own mind to determine if anything finite can be found.
A man postulates himself as Mary (in this case Tim), and he wonders, if he fell asleep and dreamt he was Tom, would he know his infinite beingness as Tim? Rupert clarifies that the infinite space of the universe is Mary, the space in the room is Jane. The room seems to be a limited space, but in this room there is the space that is identical to the space in the universe.
A man asks about the Mary and Jane metaphor. Is there a way for us to know if we are Jane or Claire (an appearance within Jane's mind, whom Rupert invented during the previous questioner exchange)? Rupert replies, that all his models are not ultimately accurate. We have to apply Occam's Razor to our models, to build a model based on our actual experience. We can go there intellectually, but we are more interested in experiential understanding. We want a model that takes us to reality, to evoke, in Cezanne words, 'the taste of nature's eternity.'
A man asks about how to face emotions, especially intense emotions, because they take up the whole space. Rupert asks about the space that is filled up; what is its nature before the emotion arises? It's empty. Is there anything, any emotion, that is not saturated with, pervaded by the space? That's pure Vedanta, which is to explore the space. The Tantic practice is to investigate the emotion. They end up in empty space, no matter which way you go.
A woman describes an investigation of love and recognises that, at the bottom of deep love, she finds suffering, and at the bottom of suffering she finds love. Rupert agrees, for instance in the case of tremendous grief, you cannot really separate the grief from the love. The woman says she's speaking more of the quality of love. Rupert suggests the qualities are the same for both if you go deeply into either experience.
A question is asked about mental stability, such as a hint of terror that arises during this investigation. The concern is about being able to carry on in daily life. Rupert suggests that our being loses the limitations from experience, such as agitation. As we sink into being, we stand revealed as unlimited, so as the separate self sinks, it loses its identity, which is like a death, and therefore sometimes terror arises. But it doesn't mean you're going to lose your mind; you still have the capacity to think and act. The only thing lost is the belief in separation. He suggests jumping into the abyss, which is actually more like surrender, a kind of 'just take me'.
A woman asks about ajatavada and this new way of speaking of world or no world. Rupert responds that ajatavada is the infinite's experience of itself. It knows nothing, but from our point of view, it's everything. He is trying to reconcile that which is nothing is also everything.
A woman who is 'a recovering Evangelical Christian' says she still yearns for a bridge between non-duality and Christianity. Rupert gives some examples, such as when Moses asks, 'Who should I say sent me?', and God says, 'Tell them "I am that I am"' Or when Jesus says, 'Before Abraham, I am', which was a reference to before time – he wasn't referring to himself as a person, but beyond time as pure and infinite being.
Where did Christianity go wrong? How did that jewel of truth get buried? Rupert suggests that the Bible wasn't understood, even by the disciples. If we believe ourself to be a person, we will think that Jesus is a person and is the Saviour, which makes all the other great traditions wrong. If we know who we are, we know who Jesus was, as the Christ principle.
A man says he went full circle since his last retreat; he is not in the same hell anymore. He said he found out there is nothing worng with him. Rupert thanks him for sharing and says that this is how the teaching works. The community of friends on the retreat has a healing presence. The real meaning of satsang is bathing in presence. The next Buddha is the community.
Kyra speaks to the audience about Rupert's foundation which was set up in 2017, originally for scholarships. The mission of the foundation is making peace accessible, available across the world, to as many people as possible.