In a June 2023 episode of the Sounds of SAND podcast, hosted by Michael Reiley, Rupert joins cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman to discuss their shared philosophy that consciousness is the fundamental field of reality and explore the intersections of science, spirituality, and the nature of understanding. Among many fascinating topics, the dialogue considers whether it is possible for one to wake up while still experiencing the perspective the finite mind; the nature of suffering; and the limitations of language when trying to convey spiritual or profound experiences, to express the ineffable.
Understanding the Limits of Knowledge
Scientific theories are approximations, never the ultimate truth. Donald, as a scientist, acknowledges that even the most rigorous scientific theories have their limitations and assumptions. He raises questions about the existence of a final theory of everything and highlights the importance of acknowledging the unknown. Rupert adds that the mind, while instrumental in exploring reality, imposes its own limitations and cannot fully grasp what lies beyond itself.
The Path of Understanding
The discussion delves into the nature of understanding and the role of the mind. They explore the experience of grasping the essence of a concept, which goes beyond mere intellectual comprehension. True understanding, they point out, arises when the mind subsides and something timeless emerges. Drawing parallels between the joy experienced in moments of understanding and the spiritual quest for self-realization, Rupert suggests that understanding is a sacred gift that surpasses the limitations of the mind and opens doors to a deeper reality.
The Ego’s Resistance to Dissolution
The conversation turns to the ego’s resistance to dissolution, particularly during meditation and the pursuit of self-inquiry. Both men acknowledge that the ego seeks its own demise while simultaneously fearing it. They compare this struggle to a moth drawn to a flame, seeking union but hesitating at the point of annihilation. The ego’s identification with thoughts and external objects is an attempt to maintain its existence. But its underlying desire is to transcend itself and merge with a greater reality.
Looking Beyond the Spiritual Bubble
Rupert expresses his interest in making the understanding of consciousness more accessible beyond the realm of spirituality. He aims to remove the religious and spiritual packaging associated with this understanding, allowing it to be shared widely without need for specific beliefs or assumptions. Donald agrees, noting that the exploration of consciousness should be part of everyday life, independent of spiritual or religious affiliations. They both emphasise the practicality and relevance of understanding consciousness in various domains, including science and personal growth.
Shifting Perspectives on Meditation
The topic of meditation arises. They acknowledge both its transformative power and the challenges it presents, concurring that for many practitioners, meditation often involves moments of great joy as well as periods of intense struggle, caused by the pushback from the ego.
Rupert describes a shift in his own understanding, explaining that traditional meditation practices, aimed at achieving fulfillment, happiness, or enlightenment, are founded on the presumption of separation – an egoic, separate self that seeks its true nature. He introduces a “pathless path” approach, the idea that meditation is not about reaching a destination but rather recognizing the ever-present awareness that pervades all experience. In this approach, one starts with the recognition of the one reality – the knowledge of “I am” – and simply abides in that beingness.
The Sacrifice of Manifestation
Donald poses a question regarding why consciousness allows itself to become unconscious and subsequently needs to awaken to its true nature. Rupert suggests that there is no specific reason for this manifestation; it is simply the nature of consciousness to manifest. In order to perceive form and experience, however, infinite consciousness must seemingly become finite and lose its knowledge of itself, leading to the belief in separation and mortality. This sacrifice entails suffering and fear.
Simplicity and Essential Understanding
Michael reflects on the idea that simplicity and essential understanding resonate deeply, whether in spiritual teachings or mathematical principles. He references Donald’s work on the amplitude hedron, a structure that simplifies complex mathematical concepts in relation to space-time, the concept that fuses time and the three dimensions of space into a four-dimensional continuum.
Beyond Space-time
Donald explains that while space-time has long been considered fundamental in physics, recent theories indicate its limitations at the Planck scale. Physicists have discovered structures like the amplitude hedron that exist entirely outside of space-time, challenging the assumption that consciousness arises within space-time. The pursuit of a theory beyond space-time has profound implications, as it opens the possibility of consciousness projecting into space-time and choosing from countless perspectives.
Consciousness as a VR Headset
Rupert introduces the analogy of the human mind as a virtual reality headset constructed from thoughts and perceptions. Consciousness, dimensionless in its essence, wears this headset and, through the lens of thinking and perceiving, refracts itself, manifesting as the experience of space and time. This viewpoint suggests that the reality we perceive is a reflection of the mind through which it is known, highlighting the inherent subjectivity of our experiences.
He goes on to draw parallels between great art and mathematics, highlighting their potential to tap into realms beyond space-time. Just as a Beethoven symphony conveys cosmic knowledge, mathematics provides a means to explore dimensions beyond our limited understanding. Both art and mathematics serve as channels to bring knowledge from the transcendent realm into accessible forms for human comprehension.
Spiritual Bypassing and Deep Inquiry
Michael asks about the concept of spiritual bypassing, wherein individuals use spiritual insights to avoid addressing their internal and interpersonal difficulties. Rupert acknowledges this potential pitfall but emphasizes that genuine spiritual inquiry goes beyond negating one’s experiences. It involves turning to face one’s thoughts, feelings, and actions, and aligning them with the recognition of one’s true nature. This integrated approach balances the transcendence of the self with the active engagement in personal growth and relational dynamics.
The Future of Science and Consciousness
As the conversation concludes, Donald envisions a necessary shift in scientific paradigms – from the prevailing physicalist worldview in which consciousness is considered a product of the brain to one in which consciousness is acknowledged as existing beyond space-time. He advocates for a dialogue that bridges the gap between science and spirituality, leading to an exciting era of exploration that can bring about new discoveries and advancements.
